04 May 2005

Remove Forebrain and Serve

487 Comments:

Blogger niv said...

i agree with you 100%. we should not encourage the herd mentality.

10:25 AM EDT  
Blogger Matthew said...

You could have the same problem with google, because it ranks articles that you search for. Finding the needle in the haystack will always be a problem for the web.

10:35 AM EDT  
Anonymous Rob Mientjes said...

It's exactly what I dislike about the tag clouds. The focus grows and grows, but the stuff that didn't make it gets lost. That's a shame. If only someone can come up with a way to do it properly (e.g. USA » States » California where States and USA also get the weight California has, if that is indeed a child of States and USA).

10:35 AM EDT  
Blogger theharmonyguy said...

Very insightful comments.

I still kind of wonder, though - how do you balance user control with well-organized data? If someone didn't know better, they might think you're arguing against user input on information structures. Is there some middle ground between a corporately controlled hierarchy and a popularity-based tag cloud?

Not knocking what you said at all, though. Excellent point about popularity breeding popularity - I think that's a key flaw to systems like a tag cloud.

10:36 AM EDT  
Blogger cboone said...

You wrote:

> Let the process create the music. There is merit to this view, especially on the community sites from which it sprang. (There is no merit to it on single-author sites, where one person creates all the content and all the tags. If you don’t have a clear purpose for your site, who does?)

But there is merit, and perhaps even more merit in that case than in others: assuming that you do, in fact, have a purpose, whether clear or not, a well-designed automated process should elucidate that purpose.

And, since our purposes are certainly not always clear to anyone, let alone ourselves, a well-designed automated process might even be better able to elucidate what's really going on. Such a process might well be expected to bring to light purposes that were completely obscure.

But maybe I've been listening to Music for Airports too much... :)

10:39 AM EDT  
Blogger Adrian said...

Tag clouds defiantly have their uses, and do show another way of cutting the data. But like other navigation systems they need to be appropriate, and used in the right place.

We have such an information overload these days, that we are currently looking for more and more ways to cut the data. Tag clouds provides another way, albeit by adding more data (the tags).

Is it still a tag cloud if you use mined information? (Such as post count in a month, or most popular search term in a webstore?) Can clouds be expanded to be 'mined clouds' as well as 'tag clouds'.

I think successful navigation in some instances can be developed using both conventional and unconventional systems. So if flikr (for example) introduced a flag called "Location" and this was a proper parent child structure, users could add a location and all it's parents by just adding

Fulham (which knows it's in London which knows it's in the UK).

This could then be overlaid with a tag cloud of Bar or Club or Football and by combining both navigation styles (and further adding in mined data (e.g search results) you could give people the best of both worlds?

As a side thought, isn't google just a tag cloud? It indexes based on popularity (more or less).

10:40 AM EDT  
Blogger Jake said...

As long as it's not the only navigational system, what's the harm?

While my interests are not dictated by what's popular, I'm often fascinated by what the "majority" thinks is cool or important. Whether or not I agree with it.

10:47 AM EDT  
Anonymous ChamFamDad said...

As I pondered your thoughts of the perils of tag clouds, I was reminded of a 'feature' in many of MS products. It's a feature I always turn off...'Use Personalized Menus.' This is the feature that starts to remove menu items from menus if you don't use them very often. Then when you want that less often used feature you can't find it!

10:51 AM EDT  
Anonymous Jeff Croft said...

Good read, Jeffrey.

My feeling is simply that tag clouds are an interesting visualization of what is popular, but they are a very, very poor means of primary site navigation.

10:58 AM EDT  
Anonymous Peter Nixey said...

Pure tagging is completely flat data orgainisation.

However, if you allow people to tag tags you allow a hierarchy of data to develop.

Flat tagging is a little like putting all your files into a single folder on your computer.

Tag-tagging is the equivalent of introducing folders.

10:59 AM EDT  
Anonymous Tom said...

I hate Personalized Menus,

"Thanks to the exponential nature of such linkage, our lucky post soon has 500 links. Some people link to it without even reading or looking at it, simply because a trustworthy blogger like Kottke linked to it first. Less fortunate articles and discussions wither and die, unnoticed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Long_Tail

11:03 AM EDT  
Anonymous John Dilworth said...

Very nice article.

If it makes sense and will benefit what you are trying to accomplish with your website, go ahead and use the tag clouds, or come up with your own creative solution. Or perhaps, you could just give them access to your web statistics page.

if it doesn't make sense, and the tag clouds don't add any real benefit and direction to your website, you are simply creating a distraction that will ultimately harm the effectiveness of your design.

11:08 AM EDT  
Blogger Jules said...

Newsmap is probably guilty of the same offence.

11:09 AM EDT  
Anonymous Lauchlin said...

I agree that the parent-child relationship loses it's meaning when the child takes on more meaning than the parent. The thing is, to some people, 8 mile would be more important than Michigan, so would that be considered a parent of the state? Is this a relative thing? If a place is considered logically...every tag would be "Earth".

I think I'm delving deeper than I wanted to here. There should be a tag structure that relates to parent-child relationships, which would give the same weight to all levels.

11:16 AM EDT  
Blogger Gordon said...

Hang on, I'm supposed to be using tags as navigation? What nonsense.

Can we scroll back a little please - if you could apply 'tags' to a printed book how would you do it? Probably with postit notes sticking out or something, right? Little flags of interest.

Everyone who comes along adds their own postit and soon you can't close the book, but if you look closely it's only certain pages that are "postit tagged" heavily.

Switching back online, is this any different?

Pickup a book, with no 'tag's. What do you have. A title that tells you you have the correct book, a table of contents that tells you the structure of the book and where each major section starts. Page numbers so you can find those sections. Possibly an index at the back with "tags" linked to page numbers. Cross references within the book.

Tags are not and SHOULD not be used as a navigation aid. Neither Flickr not Technorati suggest this so where has this notion sprung from?

Tags are a way of providing another level of interaction with a site. It's not navigation as it's not fixed, you don't control what that tag link will come up with.

Surely we have to get that basic level of understanding in place FIRST before this discussion can move on.

Tags = navigation = bad
Tags = exploring the unknown = good

11:17 AM EDT  
Anonymous Nick Olejniczak said...

Tags are like links. Shown in "raw popularity mode" they simply point to the content that's most popular. I fully agree with you that if you're running a many-authored site, tags are in fact a fantastic way to cut straight to content that's the most popular.

Where I think your problem with tag clouds begins is the fact that "popularity" is about as far as tags (and also link-trackers) have come in terms of their sophistication.

When tag clouds are sliced yet again -- by time, another tag or two, a keyword, an author -- they start showing their power. Technorati and Blogdex know this about links, and slice their data according to time (typically one day). Del.ico.us, which serves a similar purpose to Blogdex and Technorati but works on a totally different principle, uses time to slice the information presented on their main page as well.

This use of tag clouds shows that they are just in their infancy. There's a lot more to them we haven't seen publicly "done" yet. We've really only just begun "tagging" things. (To "tag" something having a slightly more open ended meaning than simple "categorization.") The best display method we've got at this point is simply showing "what's popular" in any given raw data cloud, much as do the afore mentioned link-tracking sites.

I agree these "popularity meters" are not particularly useful except as a sort of general barometer of the large-scale network effects taking place in the blogosphere, and certainly that they do bury unique content over time.

But what about taking them to the next level? What about applying some network principles to them? What about "smart tags?" Tags that know "people who used this tag for this photo/link/post also used this other tag." Or that "these three tags" tend to be used together when categorizing something.

Cutting the data in this way can turn a simple popularity cloud into a fantastic data mining technique. The relationships between the tags are what's important, not so much the tags themselves -- in this way they're just a means to a greater end. If, of course, someone's willing to take them to the next level.

11:17 AM EDT  
Anonymous Ben Sekulowicz said...

Your problem isn't coming from the use of tag clouds, but rather the way people use and "popularise" content. Shouldn't it be that the best content is seen most often. In one of your examples, Flickr, that is definately the ideal result. If a picture exists of Taksim that is so good, people would view it enough to make it popular, and thus visible in the tag cloud, regardless of whether they have even heard of the tag title before.

As you touched on, the problem comes with the way people popularise content - the effect of high power bloggers like Kottke or yourself will skew the popularity of a tag out of all proportion. But thats the way of people. Maybe its a case of the UI not being suitable not because of how it works, but how people work?

Maybe a system could be developed where referrals and/or people's status in the tag cloud's subject matter determine how much weight their opinion has?

11:36 AM EDT  
Anonymous Keith said...

I don't think the problem is tagging or folksonomies themselves. Tagging can be a very useful alternate way to browse. Flickr comes to mind. However I can see what you mean when it comes to how those tags are used.

I went against weighted lists (tag clouds) on a recent project for this very reason.

But I think there is a certain degree of improper generalization going on in your post Jeffrey. As with many thing it depends quite a bit on the audience, the users doing the tagging and the implementation of those tags.

I will say that replacing search or primary navigation scheme with user-generated tag clouds would be problematic at best.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think most folks (and I can't back this up, just saying) would browse a tag cloud looking for Taksim. Running a search for something that specific seems like the more likely user behavior.

Now if I wanted to know what the most commonly looked at group of photos was, then I'd hit the tag cloud.

12:14 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amazon is now using tag clouds for it's concordance feature.

As an author, seeing my books boiled down this way is kind of creepy.

http://patrickcostello.blogsome.com/2005/04/22/amazon-concordance/

12:15 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gordon, Jake and Keith have it right. The tags aren't THE navigational system at all. It's definitely a kind of post it note grouping - hey look at this.

On the Flickr home page is a LARGE search box that says "find a photo of.." There is NO tag cloud on the home page. Even if I click on 'view everyones photos' I still don't see one. Only if I click tags on the right do I get it.

Wordpress.org is now using it as an *add on* to what was there before. I can see that helping me find a hot support topic that everyone is having trouble with it.

It seems there is confusion in that tags are a taxonomy or a navigational system - I don't think they were ever meant to be at all.

12:20 PM EDT  
Blogger Bill Dolan said...

I think that tag clouds work for the type of mindless surfing that replaces television, where wandering around the web is more of a distraction than search for important information. They give you a nice path to follow.

12:22 PM EDT  
Blogger Martijn said...

The way tag clouds are implemented on Technorati, or del.ico.us or another site is the problem, not the tagging.

tagging is very useful, it adds metadata to content, but the trick is to device a hierarchical structure to organise the metadata and make users able to navigate through metadata.

I'm pretty convinced that a google search on 'tagged' information gets you far more adequate hits, I think we are still a decade away from useful tools utilising tags.

Experimentation is welcome, but I guess you just signaled the end of the current experiment on tag clouds.

12:33 PM EDT  
Anonymous sosa said...

I'll feel like arrogant, but let me disagree with you mrZ.

Folksonomies (such an ugly word) as opposed to Taxonomies pretend to point to the end rather than the means. If people had to taxonomically classify it's photos on flickr I bet the service wouldn't be as popular as it is right now.

Let me talk as an user:

When I want to post a photo about my city, i don't mind browsing in endless series of nested dropdown menus... what it would be? "Places->Countries->Mexico->Jalisco->Guadalajara"? I would surely don't classify at all.

And what if I wanna post a photo of me dancing ska? "people->portraits->self-portrait", "art->fine-art->dancing","music->genres->ska"?

Taggging it "me dancing ska guadalajara" is way better, and let the system do all the hard work.

If developers insists in keeping control is OK, but maybe won't make real big things as flickr until they update their minds. (remember I'm talknig as an user here, not as a developer)

12:43 PM EDT  
Blogger phil said...

So it boils down to the old problem of ranking systems: the publicity that a high rank gives to the item artificially inflates its popularity beyond what it would have been otherwise. You could argue that the same has been true for music charts since the '50s.

I think, at best, tag clouds are an interesting diversion, a novelty. However, if they encourage users to tag their content with relevant metadata, perhaps a worthwhile novelty?

1:01 PM EDT  
Anonymous James Governor said...

i would have done this before i used flickr as an example
http://www.flickr.com/photos/search/text:taksim/
ok that was a search not a tagcloud, but it certainly didnt require any formal classification either.

1:14 PM EDT  
Anonymous John said...

I agree 100% Clouds are applicable in community endevours. They do destroy the parent/child relationship (in fact any relationship at all). Clouds are designed to mirror 1 relationship, the tag vs # of times the tag appears. It also destroys the possibility of "the Long Tail". Although it would be an interesting exercise to try and tie together a Cloud based approach (to get people in the door), with the Long Tail (to find stuff the Cloud misses)...

1:25 PM EDT  
Anonymous Nathan said...

Hold on, I gotta link to this blog entry.

1:45 PM EDT  
Anonymous Dean said...

Jules said: "Newsmap is probably guilty of the same offence."

I'll add that smartmoney.com has had the "Map Of The Market" for years.

1:55 PM EDT  
Anonymous Adam Michela said...

I'm with Jake, Gordan, Keith, and anonymous.

Your post seems incredibly generalized. Yes, as with anything, some people will implement them poorly. I could take the tips from your book, follow them to a tee, and still make something really ugly.

I'll speak to two of your examples...

Flickr: Tags are not the primary means of navigation. In fact, I do quite a bit of browsing through Flickr and tags are probably my least frequent means of traversing their site.

del.icio.us: Ok, primarily, tags are the means of navigation. But navigation is not the focus of the site. I'm not sure delicious's as-designed purpose is not for you to visit the site to find bookmarks as much as it is to find bookmarks through bookmarking. At that point the related tags actually become a completely relevant and powerful form of classification.


You make some valid arguments against a specific use of tag clouds. However, you do not come across as speaking to that specific use, but rather their use in general.

If you actually use Flickr for all it's worth you'll find that you will be found without tags. In fact, I think you're one of my contacts, but I'm sure I didn't find your account by sifting through tags.

Like Matthew, your second commentator, said "Finding a needle in the haystack will always be a problem for the web". This is true indeed, and it extends through all facets of life even beyond the web. However, contrary to your arguments, it seems to me like tags and at times the clouds which are used to represent them have filled some of that void. The reason sites like Flickr have been so sucessful is because it is actually quite easy to find the "needle in the haystack" amongst their sea of tags.

We spoke more about this after your first post. I'm glad you chose to open this one up for comments.

Cheers!

1:58 PM EDT  
Anonymous Andrea said...

Yes, the "popularity inflation" of tag clouds bothers me on a visceral level, the same way that blogrolls bother me. Popular does not always equal quality, and for me it often does not even equal interesting.

What's more, tag clouds tend to move toward more general tags, which more people are likely to use. Right now, one of the "hot tags" on Technorati is "work" and on Flickr we have "cameraphone" and "party". These general tags are not very useful in describing the contents of the photos or posts they link to.

2:06 PM EDT  
Blogger Greg said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2:31 PM EDT  
Anonymous Paul said...

I found this article through Furl. At the time I saw it, only one person had "furled it," so there were no motivations based on popularity for me to click on the link. There was, however, the word "Zeldman" in the link text and that is what got me to come take a look. I have, in a manner of speaking, a personal, internal flag for the word, one based on my experience with reading other things you've written, Jeffrey.

Tagging reflects a social behavior, one deeply ingrained in "how people think and learn." We're social creatures -- our minds in the absence of adequate social immersion are as "dumb as a bag of hammers." For better or worse (and the current state of mass medias would indicate that it is often "for worse") we are instinctively drawn to investigate what appears important to the society we are immersed in. Tagging provides us with another means of judging what is "important" in a manner that is seemingly well suited for this still relatively new "internet society."

To me, the issues and problems with tagging stem not from the mechanics of the process but the size of the society. We, as a species, evolved in small groups or tribes. Our minds function according to "rules" that work well in groups of a few to a few hundred people. Permanent, large collections of people, above a few hundred, are relatively new (certainly not more than 5-6,000 years) and it can be argued that much of what fills recorded human history has been our fumbling attempts to come to terms with populations sizes we weren't (and still aren't) equipped to function well in.

What you and others say about "tag clouds" obliterating useful hierarchical information and relentlessly tending toward "lowest common denominator" populism is, I think, an inevitable consequence of the size of the participating society. Within smaller groups, tagging would remain functional and informative, tending to form a dynamic map of what is important for the group to pay attention to from one moment to the next.

What is missing in the internet tag cloud picture is that we can't know who is participating (who are they, what do they know, what is their agenda) with any certainty. Unfortunately, what shows up on our computer monitors looks real; it looks just like what we have evolved to trust and learn from. But what does it really mean (or matter) that, for example, 326 people have "furled" a web page? I don't know these people. I can't know them or them me. At the best, these implied rankings are misinformation.

Which is why I look for other indications of value, like the word "Zeldman."

2:33 PM EDT  
Blogger Greg said...

I think tag clouds are actually more useful when they are not linked. That removes the self-fulfilling prophecy element.

But then they are only useful as a gauge of what everyone else thinks is popular. Oh, wait. That makes them not very useful again.

But it is cool that popular tags get bigger. Unless, of course, you have a vision impairment. Then it's back to being useless again.

2:35 PM EDT  
Anonymous rob sutherland said...

But tag clouds on sites like flikr aren't meant to be true taxanomies. They mearly reflect popularity. I know, I know, that is what you are saying is wrong with them. But that isn't the case.

Now if I were a business site and used "popularity" to determine the presence (or lack of) my main navigation, sure I would have a problem, but the flikr tag cloud adds interest and should reflect the popularity.

The search box makes it really easy to query for some specific pic, but the joy is in the experience. In seeing visually what is popular and what isn't. And, more importantly, knowing that by posting your picture about your favorite subject can influence the topics popularity.

2:43 PM EDT  
Blogger Metahari said...

I'm a flickr user, and don't really see what the fuss is over the cloud.

The tags on flickr are first and foremost a way for me to help distingush some photos from each other, or create instant groups like 'art' or 'party'. I find them to be very very useful, and whether or not they are in the cloud doesn't really matter to me.

Does seeing a specific tag in the cloud keep me from creating my own similar tag on flickr? No, but it might prompt me to add it to that picture if I think it's close enough, and want it to be found.

I find tag cloud issues more important on a site like 43things, where people choose to join a task based on cloud size.

I agree with most posters here, though about how useful clouds are for primary navigation, ie, not much. Fun though, sometimes.

3:09 PM EDT  
Anonymous Conann said...

I agree with Gordon on;
Tags = navigation = bad
But
Tags = exploring the unknown = good
That’s like spending all night listening to the top 40 with Casey Cason in order to find the next great movement in music. At least when you find what you are looking for you can rest assured that there are loads of other people who feel the same way.
Tags are and will be very useful for pulling related files regardless of their taxonomy, like finding all the pictures of your Mum whether she was at a party, work or taken with your cameraphone.
Tag Clouds are currently a mess with meaningless words like cameraphone, wedding and party, I think as more people use them, tags will gain more meaning. As they stand importance and popularity are dangerously confused, Newsmap being a good example.
What I do find interesting about tag clouds are their equality which has been missed from the discussion. A popular tag will give you greater exposure over lesser time but if you where to use Taksim as a tag you will get less exposure over a greater time. So choose a popular tag to get burnt on one side or choose Taksim to go for an all over tan.

3:17 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No different to browsing a non-fiction book by letting it fall open to the most used pages. Much better to use the index, but this won't tell you the most popular parts of the text. Depends whether you are after information versus usage stats.

Schroed

10:02 PM EDT  
Blogger markku said...

Tag clouds should never be a substitute for navigation and content structure. It works well in providing easy access to popular content, but that's it.

10:07 PM EDT  
Anonymous Jake said...

I disagree with the idea that tagging is inherently less searchable than the usual method of organizing information into heirarchies.

In a standard heirarchy, extra work exists in having an object exist in more than one 'place' (Cities/Mexico/Mexico City vs. Places We've Visited/Mexico City vs. Laws/City/Mexico City). In most heirarchically defined systems, you'll have to understand the heirarchy as a whole to both place "Mexico City" in the right categories AND to figure out which categories to browse in order to find it.

I think this is why Open Directory/DMOZ never fully took off.

Tagging, when done well, provides me with multiple targets for my search. Maybe I've seen some pictures of tango dancers in Guadalupe nightclubs and I tagged them with 'tango dancers guadalupe night arizona' ... four months later, I can't remember much except that it was dancers in arizona.

Depending on your chosen heirarchy, it MIGHT be easy to find them, but if you've put it in one place like Dances > Tango > Nightclub, you'll have lot more trouble finding it than if you just used tags.

In other words, tags allow for cheap organization - no expensive time spent choosing the perfect categories... just add a few related terms and pop it in the oven... and tags provide 'multiple hits' that increase the likelihood of finding what you're looking for in both browsing and searching methods.

10:39 PM EDT  
Anonymous ifoyer said...

If only tag clouds floated majestically and weren't heavy with difficulties.

11:25 PM EDT  
Blogger Mike Whitehurst said...

Starting with my opinion.
I like to be able to control my users. I don't want my users to be able to control content on my website. As soon as you allow them to weigh items, using google as an example, you suddenly go to google.com and see the words "Britney Spears naked" in the biggest boldest letters you can imagine. I like to put some thought into my navigation to control the flow of users through my site, I don't want users to skip to the end page of my novel - because then it could be taken totally out of context. /opinion

lets go back to basics: usability
Erm... a big block of poorly formatted text... as navigation?!... are you joking? Navigation should be clear, simple... yeh you all read ala :) /usability

basics mk2: accessibility
lol, try sticking this (part of the flickr tag cloud) in a screen reader: "africa amsterdam animal animals april architecture art austin australia baby barcelona beach berlin bird birthday blackandwhite blue boston bridge building bw california cameraphone canada car cat cats chicago china christmas church city clouds concert". /accessibility

all that aside, the conclusion
Whilst being totally impractical and confusing, maybe a tag cloud can be helpful. I think yey to the tag cloud on flickr, such a large collection of photos lends itself to some kind of quick nav, whether or not that should be a tag cloud.. well that's anyone's guess. I had heard of technorati before, but I only visited it minutes ago... I have yet to learn what that site is about.. go figure. /conclusion

5:43 AM EDT  
Blogger Adrian said...

Interestingly, a tag cloud of the most referenced commenter here would be Gordon. Does this mean he is saying something of value? Would we be able to find this by a conventional navigation system ? (Zeldman -> Blogs -> Posts -> Comments -> Most referenced commentator). Probably not. However the cloud would be a handy way of seeing who has said something that impacted people.

6:15 AM EDT  
Anonymous Nick Olejniczak said...

Adrian's point is a good one. When you're measuring sheer popularity -- one thing that's lost is the "value" of that popularity. Are lots of people referencing Gordon because they like his point or because they don't? (Hopefully because they like it as I thought it was a pretty good one.) Popularity derived from use only indicates use and not "like" or "dislike" -- as the word "popularity" suggests.

Yet another piece of the puzzle would be to find a way to include the value of the connection you're making.

I think somepeople were trying this out a year or so ago. It never caught on as it was that "something extra" users needed to do that they never did. There's got to be a way to figure that stuff out though...

10:14 AM EDT  
Blogger Stuart Robertson said...

A weighted tag cloud could be created by the audience or controlled by the author. Actually, you could say the same for just about any kind of navigation or content.

Like so many things, the trick is finding where these techniques work well -- and avoid using them where they don't.

10:44 AM EDT  
Anonymous Robert Wetzlmayr said...

The vast majority of blogging content is a derivate of intellectual masturbation. Bloggers citing bloggers who in turn present their hollow thoughts concerning blogging to the blogosphere. Merry go round...

Like in The Real Life(TM), genuine thinkers are hard to find. The media is more valuable than the message. Blurb over...

2:36 PM EDT  
Anonymous Justin Simoni said...

Agreed.

But, Art is about experimenting, and if you say I cannot experiment, you are saying that I am not an artist. And I'm taking me ball, too! :)

Like Eno, I find the process more interesting than the product.

Saying that, I made my own text cloud, and came to my own conclusions here:

http://skazat.com/justin/currents.cgi/2005/4/20-red_clouds.html

(code included)

My conclusion was that there's no correlation between how large a word in the cloud appears and its relevance (importance) in the text it appears in. For example, just because I don't talk about, "Market Street" doesn't mean it's not important, or doesn't appear in another way in the text - perhaps it does, but only as, "the street I live on" We made a chart/graph. Yeah, us.

The only conclusion you can make is the obvious and superficial one of, "The word's used a lot"

Every other conclusion you have isn't based on much, without reading the text.

4:58 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anthony Umfer said...

What about a cloud that, when you click a link, gives the user a cloud of links only in the metacatagory of the link they clicked (in addition to the normal content).

Example: you click "San Diego" and in addition to the normal pictures you'd get, you'd get a mini-cloud of the most popular tags in, say "California"

5:02 PM EDT  
Anonymous Justin Simoni said...

And to throw some more things into the mix,

http://consumating.com/

uses tags and clouds extensively throughout the site.

Another one of my art projects is based on a character I developed:

http://consumating.com/profiles/THENEXTBIGTHING he's currently one of the least popular people on the site, which is the inverse mirror of his real self - at least when it comes to... well, I'll be a gentleman and leave it at that. Could text clouds be the reason?! :)

5:03 PM EDT  
Blogger Gordon said...

Yeah Justin but the core functions of that site aren't tag based, they are hard coded links.

Without a fall back of structured, user focussed and well design navigation, tag clouds have a tendency to float off and become something that, whilst it's pretty to look at (and some people claim they can SEE things in them) are just too far off to be bothering about.

Unless it's raining but I've stretched this metaphor far enough.

6:19 PM EDT  
Blogger Conánn said...

Gordon should be careful he is on the verge of being a likeable character

7:34 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, Jeffrey, you're simply incorrect.

http://www.informationdesign.org/archives/003153.php#003153

9:41 PM EDT  
Anonymous Joshua Porter said...

Being a longtime U2 fan, I like the Eno-equipped metaphor.

Another, alternative take:

Navigation of any sort is a procedural tax.
Content is the music.

11:33 PM EDT  
Anonymous Justin Simoni said...

Gordon, true, but I don't know how you make a, "login" link into a cloud :) - unless, yes, you just have the cloud as your main navigational aid - that would suck...

I do think that particular site uses it extensively though:

http://consumating.com/tags/

To the point where, you have to think abstractly in a "tag" idea, to wrangle yourelf into getting a date. I'm not sure if I'm completely sold on that idea - it's the human having to fit the way a computer works, instead of the computer working for the human.

12:02 AM EDT  
Anonymous Davezilla said...

Your Kottke comment cracked me up. I made a joke on my site a week ago that I was the only person on Flickr to have a photo tagged as "moosepants". A reader wrote back to say, "Now that Davezilla has a moosepants tag, expect to see 40 more photos with that tag this week."

7:31 AM EDT  
Anonymous marnie webb said...

I agree that tag clouds can be a troublesome way to present real-time navigation. But I still like them. They lead to a type of exploration that a more structured heirarchy does not. And I think it is very powerful to establish systems where the structure of the web -- like the reading and the writing -- is in the hands of relatively non-technical users.

I don't know that tag clouds are the right way to represent that -- maybe chaning the second order navigation on a site (still have cities but let detroit or san francisco or santa paula float to the top or the bottom) according to tag usage. Or...?

I think the problem is a design problem and it's about understanding how to represent this dimension of information.

Tags aren't only about popularity. They also provide a way in to the information that can vary with cultural perspective. Which, as I write it, I realize is an argument against tag clouds and in favor of an approach that allows you to view the long, flat tail of tags.

11:50 AM EDT  
Blogger Gordon said...

Cripes, likeable? ME?

Need to sort that out... er... ohh I know.

Web Standards are for idiots - code for IE5 only!!!!!

(do I need to point out that I'm joking here?).

So, Mr.Zeldman, you gonna throw your hat in the ring with this discussion?

11:59 AM EDT  
Anonymous bborn said...

Right on some points, but wrong on one major one: people don't go to the tag cloud when they know what they're looking for, they go there when they DON'T know what they're looking for.

A tag cloud is a visual representation of the relative masses of a group of ideas (how many times they have been mentioned). So you use it when you are specifically interested in finding the heaviest (most popular) topics.

Another point: what are the odds of finding Taksim in a tag cloud? None, if the tag cloud covers all topics. But if you've restricted the cloud to a subset (Countries, Europe, or Turkey), then the odds are a lot better.

12:47 PM EDT  
Blogger hiro said...

I agree to some extent. But what should not be overlooked is the underlying purpose of a website where tag clouds might be used. When a website's purpose is to provide some form of information on a wide scale and should be searchable and navigateable (?) for this information, tag clouds will almost certainly interfere with its purpose.

On the other hand, when the purpose of a website is different, they might actually be well suited. The most obvious purpose for a website where tag clouds are used is one which attempts to measure current interests. Ok, so the popularity of subjects will, through the nature of the web and its users, be overrated, but this is really more a practical point than a theoretical one. One can compensate for that.

Another, more interesting aspect of tag clouds may be that they can act as an indication of certain relationships, that other hierarchies won't bring to light. Contrary to a "standard" top-down hierarchy of categories, subsets and instances, tag clouds might reveal relationships as they exist in the mind of people and the regularities in daily life. This of course requires that users use multiple tags per taggable item. What you might end up with is a web of topics with potentially quite interesting qualities. But I'm getting sidetracked here...

Back to the first point, about the purpose of a website. What then is the purpose of Flickr? Is it intended to provide a searchable database of information? Do you really want to be able to find certain items by sight, as a link offered on the page?

Or is it something else? Is it merely a gallery website for people where they might show their personal pictures, enhanced with tags? Or one where they might paint a certain picture of themselves towards the 'outside world' (I'm reminded of a "What's in your bag"-topic somewhere filled with Apple hardware, designer gear and crumpler bags)? But if this or something else is the purpose of flickr, are tag clouds that bad? And are they bad on other websites, who's purpose might in a similar way be different and thereby not in need of proper navigation?

Well, just my two cents...

1:15 PM EDT  
Blogger Mike Whitehurst said...

I'd expect a lot of users to see a tag cloud and think "wtf is that?", I know I did. Personally I favor more familiar navs, like the boring old top-down-list.

2:12 PM EDT  
Anonymous Tim said...

The reason tags work on sites like Flickr and Technorati is because those sites don't create or own the content. A site that owns the content can analyse it and structure the navigation accordingly, but that's more difficult when the content isn't known or is fluid.

Tags should also be considered an internal hierarchy or method of organization. Sites have both internal and external structures and taxonomies, and the two often don't match up-- sometimes they are completely reversed. When you're creating the navigation for a site, whether you're creating it by committee or doing it automagically you still have to start with the internal structure. With tags you're just starting with a better structure. I view tags as a step up from directory style structures, with the ability to cross reference indefinitely so an item can be in n places at once. Tags are not flat if you don't look at them that way--by examining related items you can build a hierarchy that mimics a traditional directory structure, but is more fluid and efficient. I agree with whoever said the tags themselves aren't the problem, but the automated way the tags are analysed. Eventually we will have more sophisticated ways of analysing them. Filtering by popularity is just the tip of the iceberg.

I feel that Apple is starting to recognize this with Spotlight and their Smart Folders. The key to Spotlight being The New Finder is its ability to store files in multiple "places" at once. Same goes with Mail and iPhoto and iTunes.

On the other hand, i'm talking solely about tags here, and not tag clouds as a device. I find tags immensely useful primarily for my own data and secondarily for others' data. But I have to admit I rarely click on the tag clouds.

And Music for Airports is my favorite album...

11:27 PM EDT  
Anonymous James Cogan said...

We looked at tagging as an extension of our personality.

Whereby the application would be organizational in nature some of the time, but often a tag is used to convey an emotional response to what we're posting about. It's quasi-organizational because there is a 'very loose' tagging consistency for ongoing topics, but there is also a randomness element to it that our readers appear to be enjoying based on their favorable click response.

We haven't ventured into using clouds for representing tag popularity just yet (no immediate plans to). We have a section where we list 'Hot Tags' but that list is put together at the discretion of the editor which is 'loosely related' to the popularity of tags both in terms of how many tag searches are made and how many instances we've used the tag. Making the representation editor-controlled more personality can creep into the overall mix of choices made available and also make it more adaptable.

http://www.PrimeMinister.ca

1:12 AM EDT  
Blogger Alex said...

This de-hierarchization is exactly what Deleuze proposes in Anti-Oedipus. He argues that any sort of taxonomy privileges certain ideas as a technique of power, so it's better to flatten hierarchies all onto one plane and then link ideas within the plane rhizomatically (or hypertextually, if you're on the internet, which actually allows you to literally "link" thoughts).

I'm not sure that the technique of power of hierarchies hasn't already shifted to the power exercised by popular bloggers as they decide what to link to, and what not. The power vacuum gets filled by pop-culture, and that may be worse than a well-thought-out hierarchy that exercises power to make the internet a better place. This issue is definitely one to struggle with.

12:51 PM EDT  
Anonymous James said...

I believe that given the choice between a hand-crafted navigation and a procedurally generated navigation, the user will tend to choose the one which provides the greatest success in finding desired content.

This is mostly determined by the users current needs as well as the type of content on the site.

Given that a hand-crafted navigation (a site map) and a procedurally generated navigation (a tag map) could co-exist on the same site, why not provide both?

2:02 PM EDT  
Anonymous Stuart said...

That's not a tag cloud, this is a tag cloud!

10:51 AM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8:20 AM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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4:08 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I dont like tag clouds because they compete with my overpriced advice on how the navigation for a site should be setup.

1:46 PM EDT  
Blogger Chris said...

I like them and now I've figured out how to make 'em, I like them even more

4:04 PM EDT  
Anonymous travis vocino said...

I full intended to make a clear and comprehensive response to this post but to do so properly I would need to read all of the 60-someodd replies and choose which ones to respond to based on how much weight I give to them.

Unfortunately, this thread lacks a tag cloud. Since I'm the pinnacle of lazy when it comes to reading such things, I have no other option but to give up.

Where are you, oh tag cloud? Where are you, indeed.

12:17 AM EDT  
Anonymous travis vocino said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12:17 AM EDT  
Anonymous Kathy said...

Tag clouds, or something similiar, are inevitable. People want to "be in the know," for both good and not so good reasons. This is just the "blog version" of the same process that makes certain books, movies, art, restaurants and so on popular. Wanting to know what's popular is human nature, and while I might agree that it isn't the best way to do things, I don't think human nature is going to change anytime soon. Fortunately, it's also human nature for there to always be a few rebels, the noncomformists who search out the odd and the original (also known as the next new trend).

5:25 AM EDT  
Blogger Ismael said...

Aren't we creating a concept more useful for spammers than for web users? Isn't it much difficult for a spammer to get into a system and to make the "herbal viagra" tag stand out of the tag cloud?

Anyway, any reference to Eno is welcome. What would his Oblique Strategies have said about tag clouds? xD

3:37 AM EDT  
Blogger Tassoman said...

Clouds are good while they are explained.

Like obscenity content, public must be warned with a red icon or something else.

Otherwise, clouds could be good if we also give the choice to select the "less clicked content". But in this case we lose the way of life of clouds.

So give it up! ;)

7:43 AM EDT  
Anonymous Dan Keldsen said...

Jeffrey and all - Great discussion, seems to be generating far more depth than other circles stuck on the folksonomies wave.

I'll just throw a few cents in here, maybe a buck three fifty:
1. Randomization can do wonders to avoid the pure herd mentality problem. Let's learn from other systems, like expertise location - where you don't want the TOP expert being the only resource used, or you will drive him/her insane and cease all other 'productive work.' Mix it up, and distribute the load a bit. Seeing popular terms and trends is a very interesting artifact of these systems, but not the main benefit, IMHO. This 'tag cloud' visualization business is also one heck of an eye sore from a usability standpoint. Lightweight certainly, but yeesh...

2. The way that del.icio.us and others work allow (and encourage) people to have multiple tags, rather than the standard controlled vocabulary approach (in an enterprise deployment, not the web at large) which is typically (not always mind you) a SINGLE tag. With multiple tags comes the ability to cross-slice within an individual's collection or across collections. Personally, I wish there was an easy way to create synonym rings or a thesaurus in del.icio.us to squish the folksonomies a bit. Unlike Clay Shirky, I'm not convinced that film, movie, cinema people are from different planets and never intersect.

3. When I talk about folksonomies and personal vocabs in our Proving Ground on Information Architecture and Taxonomy event, or our consulting work, 90-95% of the people I'm working with look at me like I have two heads, perhaps three (including my own colleagues - which I'm used to). They don't have the slightest clue what I'm talking about, and even after showing it and explaining it, they don't quite get it. Let's not forget that organizations/enterprises move just a bit slower than the cutting edge blogosphere - with any luck that delay lets organizations skip out on this messy beta phase and straight to the next major stepping stone.

4. Anyone who believes that controlled vocabularies OR folksonomies OR search OR collaborative ranking OR yadda yadda are THE ONE SOLUTION in and of themselves should really take a break from drinking the kool-aid, and get some fresh air. The solution depends on the problem at hand, which depends on context, content, and the community being served. Folksonomies, while ostensibly being about sharing, seem to be about tracking your own important things FIRST, and sharing secondarily, and both of those aspects are still not quite fully baked.

5. The idea that Clay Shirky had mentioned on using these services to keep found things found is great, except that del.icio.us and most of these systems (outside of Furl, or is it Spurl?) don't keep copies of the content frozen in time, it's just a pointer. Outside of blogs, most systems don't have permalinks, and many sites are pulling dynamic content of one sort or another. Perhaps it's time for Google to leverage their caching mechanisms, along with social bookmarking, their new portal offering (back to the future anyone?), and their traditional search/pagerank capability into the next generation of findability/searchability, fully of Googly goodness?

6. The inability to search on actual content within del.icio.us et al is a right pain... I like being able to demonstrate the pros and cons of pure tagging vs. pure search and the intersection, so showing del.icio.us vs. Cocoalicious helps to easily illustrate that. Until people can see directly what the good and bad are of these capabilities, it just doesn't sink in. To my earlier point, no single one of these options is likely to be THE solution.

7. The whole business of all of these social bookmarking systems using their own secret tagging language of spaces, not spaces, commas, CamelCase, etc. - 'normal' people don't want to have to deal with this craziness. This is a real problem for even broader adoption. I'm willing to do it, but then again, I'm a sucker for experimentation.

I'm curious - anyone using these ideas within the walls of their own systems/organizations, or is it just out here in the wild west that folksonomies/social bookmarking is happening?

Cheers,
Dan

11:39 AM EDT  
Anonymous ..ak said...

I see these problems as the equivalent of a virus. They try to immitate life by allowing seeming random events happen, but miss out on three factors: death, fatigue, randomness.

Computers programs are meant to run the same from day one till whenever.

Let's add three variables to the system:
1) death: tag clouds lasting longer than XYZ will die and have to start from the beginning.
2) fatigue: the newer tags/additions will be weighted more. As it ages the additions will get less play, and eventually none at all.
3) randomnes: allow the merging and disbanding to tags to happen by users and computers. Let them clean up the mess

11:02 PM EDT  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

75 comments later, does anyone care about this discussion?

11:02 PM EDT  
Anonymous Rudi Cilibrasi said...

perhaps my research on semantic indexing can help:
my homepage has a nice paper, Automatic Menaing Discovery Using Google, that demonstrates the power of this type of tag-organization. I also have some software available for download from complearn.org in case you would like to try using it for tag organization. I look forward to your reactions.

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